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Author Topic: UML 1.4  (Read 18242 times)

James

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Re: UML 1.4
« Reply #15 on: February 22, 2002, 05:23:07 am »
Not wishing to jump in for the sake of it, it seems to me that we are to a large extent violently agreeing.  

Let's not forget that, not so long ago, everyone thought that 1.3 was the biz and berated those still using 1.2!

As the software industry becomes more mature and adopts 'traditional' engineering principles our standards will continue to evolve.

I think that Geoff and his team have got it right - adopt those bits of new standards as soon as possible where practical, and the remainder in due course.  Better than sticking with 1.3 until 1.4 compliance arrives all in one go at some point in the future.

There is however another issue, whereby the rapid pace of change within EA makes it hard for large teams to be sure that they are all working on the same version.  That subject may well be worth starting a separate discussion thread for.......

Steve_Straley

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Re: UML 1.4
« Reply #16 on: February 22, 2002, 07:24:04 am »
James,

Agreed on all your points.

With regards to the pace of EA changes, are you talking about making sure everyone has the same EA executables or EAP files?

In either case, I'm using CVS to assist in this and it seems to work out well.

Steve
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Alan Inglis

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Re: UML 1.4
« Reply #17 on: February 22, 2002, 09:58:09 am »
Keeping both EAP files and executables in line is basic configuration management.  The EAP files are development artefacts just as code is and should be under CM.  The operational environment, eg the development toolset, should be managed too using standard deployment tools.  There is an art to getting the balance between the level of control needed to ensure that the toolset is stable and giving developers the freedom to develop productively.
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Rusty

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Re: UML 1.4
« Reply #18 on: February 22, 2002, 10:24:56 am »
James,

"Better than sticking with 1.3 until 1.4 compliance arrives all in one go at some point in the future."

Agreed.

"Let's not forget that, not so long ago, everyone thought that 1.3 was the biz and berated those still using 1.2!"

Agreed.  But this is NOT what I have been stating herein.  Notational communication should be either alll 1.2, or all 1.3, or all 1.4 not a blending of some of this and some of that.

But as much as I would like to adopt a hard-line on this, for small software shops, this is an unrealistic approach.  The object is satisfaction of your user base.  As an Architect if I need to...say, use the web iconizations to stereotype my  notation, but and have to wait for a specific totally compliant future build of a EA to do this, it does not help me in the present tense...which means I go find something that will.  Like Steve has stated earlier, it is a Catch-22.

"As the software industry becomes more mature and adopts 'traditional' engineering principles our standards will continue to evolve."

Agreed.

"I think that Geoff and his team have got it right - adopt those bits of new standards as soon as possible where practical, and the remainder in due course."  

Disagree conceptually but Agree in reality.  Citing my explanation above.

"Better than sticking with 1.3 until 1.4 compliance arrives all in one go at some point in the future."

Agreed, but you contradict yourself here.

"There is however another issue, whereby the rapid pace of change within EA makes it hard for large teams to be sure that they are all working on the same version.  That subject may well be worth starting a separate discussion thread for......"

Agreed.

What a discussion this has turned into!  Gets the mental juices flowing!  

Rusty.
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X-tier Inc
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Steve_Straley

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Re: UML 1.4
« Reply #19 on: February 22, 2002, 01:34:07 pm »
Rusty,

Help me understand something here.... when I read...

"Notational communication should be either alll 1.2, or all 1.3,
or all 1.4 not a blending of some of this and some of that."

That might imply that 1.4 may drop some convention in 1.3 as opposed to merely adding on new notations.   Is 1.4 dropping any 1.2 or 1.3 agreed-on notation?   If not, then having 1.3 and adding 1.4 stuff as it becomes applicable to EA still would make it, in my mind, 1.4 and not a "blend".   Additionally, if 1.4 is not dropping 1.3 standards, then you are merely waiting for those extensions specific to the new 1.4 standards which, as I understand, will evolve over time in the product.   Or am I missing something here?

"What a discussion this has turned into!  Gets the mental juices flowing! "

Sure does!

Steve
« Last Edit: February 22, 2002, 01:35:46 pm by Steve_Straley »
Steve Straley

kiwi

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Re: UML 1.4 (Java interfaces and constants)
« Reply #20 on: February 27, 2002, 03:13:32 pm »
To add my €0.02, Java interfaces CAN have constants, which would be represented as static attributes in EA, so I for one definitely recommend we keep this in, even if there's no actual way of representing this in UML 1.4 if you were to be strict, it would seem.

http://java.sun.com/docs/books/jls/second_edition/html/interfaces.doc.html#35470




Rusty

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Re: UML 1.4
« Reply #21 on: March 05, 2002, 07:25:44 am »
Steve,


Sorry for the delay...innundated with changing requirements suddenly.  But to answer your question...yes.  1.4 has "refined" some elements which actually change the semantics of the notation.  

This has been brough up at least once that I know of.

Rusty
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Steve_Straley

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Re: UML 1.4
« Reply #22 on: March 05, 2002, 10:53:20 am »
Rusty,

Thanks for the reply.  Hope you are well.

Then this re-affirms my point about "changing standards" and the tools that reflect them.   A standard, like a language, that keeps shifting it's own definition plays havoc on the principle of standardizing on a standard.   It's kind of like skeet/trap shooting in a hurricane: nice idea to have the gun, the bullets, the clay bird... but try and hit it.

Steve
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Rusty

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Re: UML 1.4
« Reply #23 on: March 07, 2002, 01:58:52 pm »
Steve,

I agree kinda.  But don't you have to standardize on something?  You standardize but enable enough flexibility to deviate only when necessary.

It is like the English language.  We have a baseline for the language.  New words and meanings are added as the human race matures.  Old words take on new meanings as well.  The word Gay in 1950s meant happy.  Today however it means something totally different.  But the way it is spelled and pronounced is the same.  We also have some spanish, latin, french, and other languages mized in with the etomology of english  but that does not mean we begin integrating with the english language pure spanish per se.  We do not want Spanglish but English.

Same with UML.  UML is a visual communications language and therefore will mature over time.  Adopt 1.1, when 1.2 comes out adopt it in full..1.3, 1.4 etc.  While there may be some changes, in the meanings of the notation, the notation stays the same.  It is the capturing of the change in the meaning that is paramount.

Rusty
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gsparks

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Re: UML 1.4
« Reply #24 on: March 07, 2002, 03:41:02 pm »
Hi guys,

Just thought I'd bring up something thats probably relevant to a few of the comments put forward here.

It has been pointed out, quite correctly, that UML 1.4 does not support attributes for Interfaces.

An attempt to enforce this UML restriction on Java users has caused some angry responses - so at the moment, in violation of the UML 1.4 syntax, Interfaces are allowed to have attributes (albeit static ones) in EA.

Interestingly, the XMI DTD version 1.1, produced from the UML metamodel permits Interfaces to have attributes thru the UML:Classifier.feature element. So when EA exports XMI for Interfaces with Attributes, these are valid according to the DTD.

But even -more- interesting is that the current draft proposal for UML 2.0 allows Interfaces to have attributes - bringing the UML definition of an interface more into line with things like Corba and Java.

So what is the consensus on this?

1. Syntactically (for UML 1.4) it is not correct.
2. Pragmatically, it is done all the time and is 'essential' in some peoples minds
3. At the XMI level (model interchange) it is actually 'legal'
4. Conceptually it appears 'correct' as is evidenced by the revision in the forthcoming UML 2.0 specification.

Hope this is of interest,

Geoff Sparks













Steve_Straley

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Re: UML 1.4
« Reply #25 on: March 08, 2002, 08:35:22 am »
Rusty,

Good question!  Yes, you have to standardize to a point.  Kind of reminds me a joke the R&D guy at CA once said in conference, "Guys, Shift Happens!".   I have settled on that notion and that we here have standardized on those things that make sense to what we are trying to accomplish.   This allows us to say what are our standards and use new ones that are applicable or ignore those that aren't.   It also frees us from being so bogged down to such a degree where it feels that the tail is wagging the dog... i.e.  the Standard is dictating the needs of the business.   We have a small group that meets and if something new and is applicable, we implement it in our standards.  If not or if there is no standard yet out there for what we are doing, we develop our own standard and publish it.   <lol>  I guess our standard is a aggregated sub-class of lots of "standards". :-)

Taking this further, Geoff points out a restriction (to some) about UML 1.4.   Now, if we here choose that it IS important to have attributes available in interfaces and while that is NOT part of the "standard" but it IS the standard of the business, then I would want a tool that supports MY standard and not the other way around.   This is where we, in IT, get so screwed up (IMHO) and where we get a bad wrap... it's the business need (to me) and not the IT need.   This is why I want a more flexible tool than one that is so regidly set on a standard that has no monetary investment in our development efforts.

Great discussion by the way!

Steve
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Rusty

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Re: UML 1.4
« Reply #26 on: March 08, 2002, 09:40:31 pm »
Steve, Geoff:

Absolutely!  This is where the "flexible" part comes in.  I agree and have with this aspect all along.

Now that we are all in agreement let me pose this question...is this the death of the UML 1.4 thread?    
<LOL>

:)

Rusty
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kiwi

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Re: UML 1.4
« Reply #27 on: March 09, 2002, 02:14:44 am »
Sorry couldn't resist... may the thread die after this message :)

Quote
Steve,

I agree kinda.  But don't you have to standardize on something?  You standardize but enable enough flexibility to deviate only when necessary.

It is like the English language.  We have a baseline for the language.  New words and meanings are added as the human race matures.  Old words take on new meanings as well.  The word Gay in 1950s meant happy.  Today however it means something totally different.  But the way it is spelled and pronounced is the same.  We also have some spanish, latin, french, and other languages mized in with the etomology of english  but that does not mean we begin integrating with the english language pure spanish per se.  We do not want Spanglish but English.

Same with UML.  UML is a visual communications language and therefore will mature over time.  Adopt 1.1, when 1.2 comes out adopt it in full..1.3, 1.4 etc.  While there may be some changes, in the meanings of the notation, the notation stays the same.  It is the capturing of the change in the meaning that is paramount.

Rusty


Welll... come on though, English language is defined by its usage, not some arbitrary standard, albeit over a time scale that is a lot slower than other standards (but then, UML would change a lot more slowly if 2 billion people in the world used it every waking moment of their lives :)  Even grammar changes. The nounizing of verbs and verbizing of nouns are much more common in recent years to what it was. 'Yous' as plural for second person plural is increasingly common across the world. New words and vocabulary evolve even more rapidly with the internet. In other words, people run with it. Even 5 years ago, would you have had any idea what i meant by 'blog', 'spam', 'to text someone', etc etc sure I think you get my point.

Speaking of Spanglish, it's what's becoming increasingly common in Spanish. For instance there are two words for 'link' in Spanish: 'enlace' or 'vínculo' but here in Spain people just use 'link' as they do 'training', 'marketing', 'scope' etc. (A funny side is that people pronounce foreign brand names with a literal Spanish accent... like 'Oracle' for instance is pronounced 'orAH-kleh' and there was a time when I had absolutely -no- idea what they were saying until they wrote it down :)

New words are more often than not directly transplanted into other languages. It happened in English too, there are bundles of foreign words and concepts.

So I'm not so sure it's as clear-cut as that. I think it's ok to use these tools to communicate the intent of the design. You're not going to do sequence diagrams for every flow, only for core use cases for analysis (with Together actually, I've used the sequence diagram from code option to understand the method call stack, very powerful analysis tool).

My €0.02
« Last Edit: March 09, 2002, 02:16:54 am by kiwi »

Steve_Straley

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Re: UML 1.4
« Reply #28 on: March 11, 2002, 07:45:01 am »
Rusty,

Since we are in agreement, maybe this thread is finally at its conclusion... it has the dreaded "comparing to Together" impression now implanted which is a sure sign that it has concluded <lol>.

Cheers,

Steve
Steve Straley