Author Topic: Information about Sparx Systems  (Read 11671 times)

Tom2

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Information about Sparx Systems
« on: December 03, 2002, 02:43:07 am »
Help me!

I work for a company and I try to find a good modeler UML tool. I think Enterprise Architect is particularly interesting. Of course the problem is that Sparx Systems isn't as important as Rational for instance! So, I want to convince my company that we needn't Rational Rose, and that Enterprise Architect is a good product. In order to make that I have to find information about Sparx Systems (capital, number of people, number of sold licences, clients...this kind of information).

Thanks a lot for your answer

Steve_Straley

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Re: Information about Sparx Systems
« Reply #1 on: December 03, 2002, 05:40:25 am »
Hi,

I'll let Geoff decide if he wants to answer this but with over 20+ years in software and as a former RVP for CA and one of the original team members of Clipper, a few brief thought.

Sparx is MORE important that Rational, not less.   Their attitude to a) support and b) upgrading their produce to be current on a regular basis is FAR more than what I can say for Rational.   Now, if you mean by "important" that their have a HUGE MARKETING program, INFLATED licensing agreements, and CORPORATE SALES reps all over the place, then okay... they have that.   But then again, so did RBase, QuatroPro, Quark, Frameworks, Aston Tate, yadda yadda, and the list could go on.   I've found that MEDIOCRE/CRAPPY products can have the best MARKETING arm to overcome the shortcomings of their product.   That, too me, doesn't make for good software development, modeling, designing, et cetera.  And without the best tools, our software using those tools can not be "the best".   The trickly down theory at work I suppose.

I also hope that you are actually comparing ROSE to EA and not the "suite" of Rose to EA.   The first is comparable; the last is not.    I'm sure you can do a purely _technical_ comparison of the two and draw that conclusion as well amd EA will beat Rose.   When PRICE, SUPPORT, FREE UPGRADES FOR A YEAR, and (this last point is CRITICAL) Sparx bend-over-backward approach to listen to the users and offer feature enhancements based on OUR REQUESTS, then there is no compariosn.   Rose and the "corporate mentality" behind Rational falls woefully short of the mark.    But if you're looking for slick sales people, if your management team wants to be wined-and-dined at free lunches, if they like glossy handouts, and if they think that paying MORE MUST mean it is better, then Rose comes ahead.

As far as capital, number of people, number of sold licences, et cetera... I understand the RATIONAL behind the question but frankly, it's none of anyone's business IMO (no offense being given here... just an opinion).   That same thing was done against Nantucket and we just kept sticking to 3 major principles to our product "Bigger, Better, and Faster".   At the time, Ashton Tate was huge and we weren't and while in the beginning we weren't "approved software", over time we came to be because of those three principles... and not because of "the numbers".   Also, consider the dozens of support people at Rose who can't answer a question; the number of programmers that can't update products (like RequistePro), and the number of sold licences that just sit on the shelf because of awkwardness of use, inability to get the job done, and support that is anything but... then you'll see I hope that the requested numbers don't mean very much.  

Finally, unless Sparx is a publicly traded company, those numbers are NOT "public" in nature. Unfortantely some corporate minds think they mean something to the quality of the product or the longevity of the company.   Well, those numbers mean nothing.  Here's just ONE example.  I know a TON of people who gave ASK/Ingres high marks for those types of numbers and now know they didn't mean very much the day after they were sold to CA... and CA has all of those types of numbers you want.   In short, it's the Software, Support, and ROI that should mean MORE to the decision making process than anything else.   All the capital, number of people, number of sold licenses, clients and et cetera don't mean a hill of beans if the SOFTWARE doesn't do the job.   That's the issue, IMO.

Just my .02 worth...

Steve
Steve Straley

PhilR

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Re: Information about Sparx Systems
« Reply #2 on: December 03, 2002, 06:57:29 am »
Hi Steve,

I knew that your name was familiar and now I remember I read one of your Clipper books way, way back when I did a spot of Clipper programing (even taught a Clipper course once).

Basically I agree with every word, comma and full-stop of your comments.

I have seen estimates suggesting that up to 60% of the cost of software bought from a large vendor is pre-sales.  In other words, if you actually buy the product, you pay for the glossy brochures, slick sales people's visits and free lunches supplied to all the people who DID NOT BUY THE PRODUCT.

I am guessing that Sparx's pre-sales percentage is much, much smaller than 60%.

You decide!

Phil

CJ

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Re: Information about Sparx Systems
« Reply #3 on: December 03, 2002, 07:08:58 am »
G'day,

Well put Steve, particularly "the Software, Support, and ROI ... mean MORE to the decision making process than anything else."

Aside from the financial case to adopt EA, EA has a zero risk factor.  EA exports models to XMI standard... export your models and import into some other tool anytime.

Touchy-feely stuff?  The product and the support are outstanding, making for a VERY happy user community.  Happy people are more productive, and produce higher quality stuff...  :D

Cheers and best regards.

CJ

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Re: Information about Sparx Systems
« Reply #4 on: December 03, 2002, 07:15:09 am »
I couldn't bold/italic anything if my rear-end depended on it.

Hope y'all can still take my 2 cents somewhat seriously.
Cheers and best regards.

Steve_Straley

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Re: Information about Sparx Systems
« Reply #5 on: December 03, 2002, 07:39:31 am »
Phil,

Quote
I knew that your name was familiar and now I remember I read one of your Clipper books way, way back when I did a spot of Clipper programing (even taught a Clipper course once).


Thanks, I'm glad you remembered... I try to forget sometimes when I look back <ROFL>.

Your comments about the pre-sales stuff is VERY VERY True.  As RVP-level of Pre-Post Sales of Field Services at CA for the entire SE region here, I got to see that first hand.   The CA model of buying companies and then up-selling to their installed base is well known.  Their high price points is well known.   The sales staff hammering on corporate buyers and "decision makers" is well known.   Their less-than-adequate software, not moving development on purchased software companies, and their multi-tiered level of non-support is also well known.   Rational follows these points is also well known.   Frankly, I'm glad to see Geoff and crew around... it reminds me of the good-old days like Nantucket... where trying to make money by being the best is the only important issue.

Oh, Phil... don't pre-judge EA-ReqPro... we're using VO for this first release before moving over to C# and .NET <lol>.

Cheers,

Steve
Steve Straley

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Re: Information about Sparx Systems
« Reply #6 on: December 03, 2002, 07:40:26 am »
Jason,

Quote
I couldn't bold/italic anything if my rear-end depended on it.

Hope y'all can still take my 2 cents somewhat seriously.


I'll take more than those .2 cents... well said and I totally agree!

Cheers,

Steve
Steve Straley

Donald Hamm

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Re: Information about Sparx Systems
« Reply #7 on: December 06, 2002, 08:28:32 pm »
All I can speak to is this:

I've used both.  I've model with both.  I've been doing architecture for 15 years.

FOR THE MONEY, you can not beat Enterprise Architect.  While there are many items in Rose and yes, it is feature rich, its around $4000 for 1 copy.  The company I work for bought 1 Rose license  -- then we had to buy 1 'code generator' for EACH language (C# and VB6).  I wanted something for my self so I found EA.  I've used it for 6 months and love the features.  I did several projects for our company and delivered the results using EA.  The company was -- well their jaws dropped!  Because of 'seeing is believing', the company bought 6 copies -- and now, its our standard because of the work it is capable of.  

Now support -- you will NOT get Rose to make changes or work with you when you have issues AT lighting speed!  Geoff and his team are just unbelievable!

I'd suggest you use the tool on a project and prove to them (like I had to) what the tool can do.  I did a training session for our company today on the virtues of the tool -- they are totally hooked!

BUY it.  Most companies just do make an effort because they think they need to spend hundreds or thousands of dollars for a single copy.  NOT the case here...

It is an awesome tool with great support -- that's what I want when I buy a tool...

-Donald Hamm

Chief Scientist
Acceleration Technologies Inc.

Murray

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Re: Information about Sparx Systems
« Reply #8 on: December 08, 2002, 06:43:32 pm »
Hi all,

Appreciate the comments that have been posted so far. However, as someone currently evaluating EA - I do find the "About Us" section on Sparx's website to be very limited. All they give is their contact details and some dates for establishment etc.

I'm not really looking for financial information about the company - but I would at least like to know who the main people in the company are - and a bit of background info on them.

This is pretty standard info for a company to put on their website and allows potential customers to get a "feel" for the company. Even my Google searches so far have turned up nothing about the company - no press reports - nothing.

I'm a little disappointed that no-one from Sparx has responded to this thread. However, so far I am very impressed with EA and may well end up purchasing despite the lack of info about the company. At the price, it's probably worth the risk. But I do wonder how many sales they are missing out on simply because they don't provide some basic background info about the company on their website.

Hope this is taken in the vein of constructive criticism that it is intented to be.

Regards

Murray

Steve_Straley

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Re: Information about Sparx Systems
« Reply #9 on: December 08, 2002, 08:48:15 pm »
Murray,

I understand the driving issues you have expressed but I don't think a detailed "About Us" web page would resolve anything.  CA has an investor's page and a detailed history page and I don't know anyone on here with pleasant experiences with that company (just siting one for an example AND as a former RVP) nor do I know anyone RUSHING to buy any of their products.   And I'm talking about a 6 Billion Dollar company with over 17K employees!

Sparxr product, support, and dedication throughout the years expressed by others on here speaks LOUDER than any self-made marketing blurb on a web page.  That's just my opinion and I have often been wrong!

Maybe their way of doing business doesn't require the "corporate" press report, high google presence, et cetera.  As a potential customer I would hope that the resounding support and open communication on this board addresses that far better than any slick glossy could ever do!

<<I'm a little disappointed that no-one from Sparx has responded to this thread.>>

Maybe they feel we, their users, have done an adequate job and there is no need for them to enter the fray.

<<However, so far I am very impressed with EA and may well end up purchasing despite the lack of info about the company.>>

Again, the product and the support (and okay, the price) says it all to me.

<<But I do wonder how many sales they are missing out on simply because they don't provide some basic background info about the company on their website.>>

You raise an interesting point but that's for them, I feel, to consider.  Hell, if I could be a company of just 1 and had a product with their support and if I could make a nice living with just one product and just being a lone developer, I would in a heart beat!   Samson found out that size doesn't matter.

I think that once you buy the product you'll find the level of support FROM ALL OF US to be an oasis of pleasure from the corporate environment of software overpricing, customer non-support, and less-than-adequate software tools for development.

That's just what I've experienced and I've only felt that way about one other product in over 20 years.

Cheers,

Steve
Steve Straley

PhilR

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Re: Information about Sparx Systems
« Reply #10 on: December 09, 2002, 01:32:52 am »

Quote
Oh, Phil... don't pre-judge EA-ReqPro... we're using VO for this first release before moving over to C# and .NET <lol>.
Steve


Steve,

Not quite sure what I said that gave the impression I pre-judged EA-ReqPro except perhaps its omission from my list of suggestions for requirements management tools.

If so, I didn't mean to create that impression.  I was listing stuff that I have had some experience with and look forward to evaluating your product on my next project.

But for the time being, were's that beer...

Phil.

PhilR

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Re: Information about Sparx Systems
« Reply #11 on: December 09, 2002, 01:58:26 am »

Quote
However, as someone currently evaluating EA - I do find the "About Us" section on Sparx's website to be very limited. All they give is their contact details and some dates for establishment etc.

I'm not really looking for financial information about the company - but I would at least like to know who the main people in the company are - and a bit of background info on them.

This is pretty standard info for a company to put on their website and allows potential customers to get a "feel" for the company.


Hi Murray,

Lets be perfectly honest.  Given that Sparx is a small, innovative company, I can only see their corporate profile being used as an argument against a purchase decision by corporate management.  Better to say nothing that to give the other guys amunition.

I downloaded EA.  Evaluated it.  Read postings on this forum. Made an informed decision to use the product.

If organisations can't/won't work that way then let them suffer the financial and productivity loss.

I contrast, I recently sat through a glitzy presentation by a large vendor.  Utter rubbish!  Most of the content focussed on the personality cult of its founders, slagging off its competition and basically what good guys they were.  I also detected a fair amount of half-truths and bare-faced lies! (To avoid misunderstandings I will state quite clearly that the company involved was not Rational).

It really is up to the customer to decide which type of vendor they wish to deal with...

Phil.

Steve_Straley

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Re: Information about Sparx Systems
« Reply #12 on: December 09, 2002, 03:26:34 am »
Phil,

LOL... I'm sorry my friend, I wasn't clear... I was asking for an open mind because of the language we're using.   Very Clipper-esque <LOL>.  Nothing more.

Now who's turn is it for that beer???

Cheers,

Steve

Quote


Steve,

Not quite sure what I said that gave the impression I pre-judged EA-ReqPro except perhaps its omission from my list of suggestions for requirements management tools.

If so, I didn't mean to create that impression.  I was listing stuff that I have had some experience with and look forward to evaluating your product on my next project.

But for the time being, were's that beer...

Phil.
Steve Straley

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Re: Information about Sparx Systems
« Reply #13 on: December 09, 2002, 09:10:20 am »
By the way....

FWIW, I just did a google search on "UML Tool" and EA came up as the 17th item (on the second page) and ahead of Object By Design tool, Metamill, and almost just before VisualUML.

I then typed in "UML Modeling Tool" and what to my wonder did I see off to the right in "SPONSORED LINKS" was Sparx and Enterprise Architect.

I then typed in "UML Tool with support and full features" and Sparx was 4th and RATIONAL didn't show up until the 8th page and I stopped looking for Togethersoft.   Not sure if that means that neither Rose or Togethersoft offer "full features" and/or "support" or both... <LOL>.

Of course when I searched for "I want a free BMW", Sparx and Enterprise Architect didn't show up at all in the result set.  Drats!

Cheers,

Steve
Steve Straley

Murray

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Re: Information about Sparx Systems
« Reply #14 on: December 09, 2002, 06:27:42 pm »
Steve and Phil,

You make some fair points. As I said - I am very impressed so far with EA. And yes - I am much more interested in hearing your experiences with the product - and your experiences with support from the company - than in glossy market-droid speak.

Still - I wouldn't mind knowing a little about Geoff's background. It doesn't bother me in the slightest if EA is a small company -  just makes me all the more impressed with the product. But - forgive me for being presumptive - it appears to me like Sparx are avoiding this issue. That's their perogative of course - I'm just trying to give some constructive feedback.

Murray