Author Topic: Different Shapes in different Viewpoints for the same Diagram Element  (Read 36821 times)

Viking

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Hello together,

I posted this topic already http://sparxsystems.com/forums/smf/index.php/topic,31192.0.html.

But here it is a little bit different: I want to show an item as an Archimate Business Process shape in one viewpoint and the same item with an BPMN Activity shape in another viewpoint (BPMN-diagram). In the BPMN-diagram I use the different types of the shape and therefore different representations of the BPMN Activity shape.

My question is: do I have to declare every "sub-shape" in the Shapescript?

Many thanks in advance

Viking




qwerty

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Re: Different Shapes in different Viewpoints for the same Diagram Element
« Reply #1 on: October 21, 2016, 10:23:15 pm »
I would say, that's plain wrong. It's either the one or the other and does not depend on the viewpoint. If you have some "Jekyll and Hyde"-element your design has likely a flaw.

q.

Uffe

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Re: Different Shapes in different Viewpoints for the same Diagram Element
« Reply #2 on: October 21, 2016, 11:46:45 pm »
Hello,


Hm. Sounds to me like you're oversimplifying. Insisting on a single model element to represent some real-world entity, MySystem say, is a bit like writing a Word document where the word MySystem is only allowed to be typed in once and everywhere else you want to use that word you have to place a cross-reference to that single occurrence. Technically it works, but it just doesn't make sense to do it that way.

Secondly, a process in ArchiMate is not the same thing as a process in BPMN. They are two completely different standards, from two different (and in part, competing) standards organizations. There are, of course, situations where you want to include an element belonging to one model in a diagram which models something completely different (like, say, a process element in a diagram describing an organization), but typically you only do that as a reminder or a link to a different model. Here it sounds like you're trying to make one and the same element be two different things under two sets of rules depending on the context where you're looking at it. This doesn't make any sense to me.

Looked at a different way, what you're trying to do appears to be to create a new modelling language which extends both ArchiMate and BPMN. Which is no small task.

Anyway, ShapeScripts can check the type of the underlying diagram so yes, it can be done and yes, the whole script has to be included in the stereotype definition. Where else would you put half of it?


/Uffe
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Viking

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Re: Different Shapes in different Viewpoints for the same Diagram Element
« Reply #3 on: October 22, 2016, 12:13:53 am »
I would say, that's plain wrong. It's either the one or the other and does not depend on the viewpoint. If you have some "Jekyll and Hyde"-element your design has likely a flaw.

Many thanks, Q. I understand. I will try.

Geert Bellekens

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Re: Different Shapes in different Viewpoints for the same Diagram Element
« Reply #4 on: October 22, 2016, 12:19:57 am »
I agree with both q and Uffe. In other words: It's not because you can that you should :)

Geert

Viking

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Re: Different Shapes in different Viewpoints for the same Diagram Element
« Reply #5 on: October 27, 2016, 07:23:01 pm »
Sounds to me like you're oversimplifying. Insisting on a single model element to represent some real-world entity, MySystem say, is a bit like writing a Word document where the word MySystem is only allowed to be typed in once and everywhere else you want to use that word you have to place a cross-reference to that single occurrence. Technically it works, but it just doesn't make sense to do it that way.
For my opinion BPMN and Archimate are just notations. They are using Shapes to "show" something. Archimate "shows" a Process resp. Process Step in a different way than BPMN. But they a both using the same model, the Process resp. Process step. It's like the MVC-Pattern. A number can be shown in a viewpoint as a column or as a cycle (the size shows the amount in comparison to other numbers). Both views (Shapes) represent the same model, the number.

Secondly, a process in ArchiMate is not the same thing as a process in BPMN. They are two completely different standards, from two different (and in part, competing) standards organizations.
Both are notations.

Looked at a different way, what you're trying to do appears to be to create a new modelling language which extends both ArchiMate and BPMN. Which is no small task.
No!!! I am using different viewpoints showing different aspects of an Enterprise Architecture. I am using Archimate to show a system landscape and Process Steps using it. And I am using BPMN to model these Process Steps in a flow. Two different viewpoints, to different notations. Nothing merged. The are just using the same elements in the project browser which should be shown according the the standards used for the respctive viewpoints.

Viking

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Re: Different Shapes in different Viewpoints for the same Diagram Element
« Reply #6 on: October 27, 2016, 07:41:32 pm »
I would say, that's plain wrong. It's either the one or the other and does not depend on the viewpoint. If you have some "Jekyll and Hyde"-element your design has likely a flaw. q.
O.K. So I have to create a shapescript for each shape and for each property of the shape (e.g. for an BPMN "Activity": loop, subprocess, etc.)? This would be about 20 shapscripts only for "Activity".

And if the Business Analyst want to change the property of the shape (e.g. from loop to subprocess), he has to replace the shape with a new shape and redrawing all connections?
« Last Edit: October 27, 2016, 07:53:09 pm by Viking »

Uffe

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Re: Different Shapes in different Viewpoints for the same Diagram Element
« Reply #7 on: October 27, 2016, 10:39:31 pm »
Sounds to me like you're oversimplifying. Insisting on a single model element to represent some real-world entity, MySystem say, is a bit like writing a Word document where the word MySystem is only allowed to be typed in once and everywhere else you want to use that word you have to place a cross-reference to that single occurrence. Technically it works, but it just doesn't make sense to do it that way.
For my opinion BPMN and Archimate are just notations. They are using Shapes to "show" something. Archimate "shows" a Process resp. Process Step in a different way than BPMN. But they a both using the same model, the Process resp. Process step. It's like the MVC-Pattern. A number can be shown in a viewpoint as a column or as a cycle (the size shows the amount in comparison to other numbers). Both views (Shapes) represent the same model, the number.

That may be your opinion, but it's not shared by OMG or the Open Group. Both standards use shapes to show "something"s, but the "something"s that are being shown are not the same "something"s. This is what gets you into trouble. Just because the two standards organizations happened to pick the word "process" for one of their respective concepts, that doesn't mean that an ArchiMate process is the same thing as a BPMN process.

Continuing your MVC analogy, there is no single universal definition of "a number". In a mathematical model, it can refer to the set of integer (or fractional, or real, or imaginary...) numbers -- but in a model of musical theatre it refers to a song-and-dance routine. You're trying to mix two models which are not quite as far apart as all that, but they are not one and the same.

Quote
Secondly, a process in ArchiMate is not the same thing as a process in BPMN. They are two completely different standards, from two different (and in part, competing) standards organizations.
Both are notations.

Both are notations with semantics. There is a lot more to them than the mere shapes, and if you ignore the defined semantics of your chosen notation, you're missing the point of using a standard in the first place.

If you have created a BPMN process, you have made a conscious decision not to display a certain shape but that you mean this element to represent a BPMN process. If you have created an ArchiMate process, you have made a conscious decision that you mean this element to represent an ArchiMate process.


Quote
Looked at a different way, what you're trying to do appears to be to create a new modelling language which extends both ArchiMate and BPMN. Which is no small task.
No!!! I am using different viewpoints showing different aspects of an Enterprise Architecture. I am using Archimate to show a system landscape and Process Steps using it. And I am using BPMN to model these Process Steps in a flow. Two different viewpoints, to different notations. Nothing merged. The are just using the same elements in the project browser which should be shown according the the standards used for the respctive viewpoints.

If you want to show two aspects of the same entity in your architecture, the best way is to let each EA element represent one aspect of that entity, not the entire entity. The same goes if you want to show the same entity in two different models using two different notations. So if a process in your architecture has some BPMN characteristics and some ArchiMate characteristics, model those as two different elements and connect them (if necessary) with a trace or realization.

I would say, that's plain wrong. It's either the one or the other and does not depend on the viewpoint. If you have some "Jekyll and Hyde"-element your design has likely a flaw. q.
O.K. So I have to create a shapescript for each shape and for each property of the shape (e.g. for an BPMN "Activity": loop, subprocess, etc.)? This would be about 20 shapscripts only for "Activity".

And if the Business Analyst want to change the property of the shape (e.g. from loop to subprocess), he has to replace the shape with a new shape and redrawing all connections?

What we're trying to say is that you're taking the wrong approach with a single element for a single real-world entity. If you instead use one element for each aspect of the real-world entity, the problem goes away.


/Uffe
My theories are always correct, just apply them to the right reality.

Geert Bellekens

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Re: Different Shapes in different Viewpoints for the same Diagram Element
« Reply #8 on: October 27, 2016, 10:51:33 pm »
From a technical standpoint it is entirely possible to write a single shapescript that transmogrifies depending on any number of parameters; tagged values, the type of the diagram, the name of the user, whatever.

But there are serious as Uffe and qwerty try to point out if this is something you should be doing.
I've said it before, and I'll probably say it again a few times:

Quote
It's not because you can that you should!

Geert

Paolo F Cantoni

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Re: Different Shapes in different Viewpoints for the same Diagram Element
« Reply #9 on: October 28, 2016, 11:26:05 am »
From a technical standpoint it is entirely possible to write a single shapescript that transmogrifies depending on any number of parameters; tagged values, the type of the diagram, the name of the user, whatever.

But there are serious as Uffe and qwerty try to point out if this is something you should be doing.
I've said it before, and I'll probably say it again a few times:

Quote
It's not because you can that you should!

Geert
Absolutely agree with the "troika".  As Geert says, just because you can do something, doesn't mean it's a good idea to do it.

However, it IS the case that various methodologies have conflated various ideas and separate things that are merely different renderings, viewpoints or aspects of the same thing into separate objects - Swimlanes as a case in point.

However, when you are deciding if two things are the same you need to be very careful.  As has been noted, an ArchiMate business process and a BPMN process aren't necessarily the same.

As has also been noted, trying to merge ArchiMate and BPMN is a very difficult thing.   I recommend Bruce Silver's book: BPMN Method and Style.

That having been said, we are trying to merge them but are taking it very slowly.  As I've said many times:  It's ALL abut the semantics.  We haven't been able to resolve them yet.

We ARE experimenting with allowing different renderings of the same object depending upon the viewpoint required and we are using the (still embryonic) user selected diagram specific properties mechanism for that purpose.  So it can be relatively easily done if you want it.

HTH,
Paolo
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Viking

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Re: Different Shapes in different Viewpoints for the same Diagram Element
« Reply #10 on: October 28, 2016, 11:37:39 pm »
Thank you very much for your valuable feedback.

Secondly, a process in ArchiMate is not the same thing as a process in BPMN. They are two completely different standards, from two different (and in part, competing) standards organizations.

We have the same understanding.

As has been noted, an ArchiMate business process and a BPMN process aren't necessarily the same.
"ArchiMate business process and a BPMN process aren't necessarily the same" means, that they can be the same. In my model, the point exactly to the same thing.

If you have created a BPMN process, you have made a conscious decision not to display a certain shape but that you mean this element to represent a BPMN process. If you have created an ArchiMate process, you have made a conscious decision that you mean this element to represent an ArchiMate process

I am just using different shapes because I show the process steps in an Archimate-based viewpoint and in and BPMN-based viewpoint. I do NOT want to merge notations.

defined semantics of your chosen notation.
resp.
BPMN characteristics and some ArchiMate characteristics

I think this is the point of my misunderstanding. Could you tell me the differences, please? This would help me a lot.

Many thanks in advance

V


Glassboy

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Re: Different Shapes in different Viewpoints for the same Diagram Element
« Reply #11 on: October 31, 2016, 09:53:33 am »
"ArchiMate business process and a BPMN process aren't necessarily the same" means, that they can be the same. In my model, the point exactly to the same thing.

I think what you're ignoring is that relationships already exist in most notations to do what you want without merging the two concepts into one element.  For example trace which you can find on the common toolbox on every diagram.

Paolo F Cantoni

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Re: Different Shapes in different Viewpoints for the same Diagram Element
« Reply #12 on: October 31, 2016, 11:10:02 am »
An alternative understanding of "ArchiMate Business Processes and BPMN Processes aren't necessarily the same" is that some ArchiMate Business Process and BPMN Processes may be the same, some ArchiMate Business Processes are NOT BPMN Processes and some BPMN Processes AREN'T ArchiMate Business Processes.

This means it may be dangerous to assume they are ALL the same.

Paolo
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Viking

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Re: Different Shapes in different Viewpoints for the same Diagram Element
« Reply #13 on: November 02, 2016, 05:57:19 pm »
An alternative understanding of "ArchiMate Business Processes and BPMN Processes aren't necessarily the same" is that some ArchiMate Business Process and BPMN Processes may be the same, some ArchiMate Business Processes are NOT BPMN Processes and some BPMN Processes AREN'T ArchiMate Business Processes. This means it may be dangerous to assume they are ALL the same. Paolo

(1)
There must be a misunderstanding. I am NOT talking about BPMN Processes or Archimate Processes.

I am talking about Process Steps. I describe the flow in a BPMN model. I am using an Archimate-based model to map the same process steps to the IT capabailities (applications) supporting them.

(2)
I also do NOT want to merge models.

In the BPMN diagram I use BPMN_Activity to show the process steps. In the archimate diagram I use Archimate_Process.

I can not see the point why this should be wrong.

Paolo F Cantoni

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Re: Different Shapes in different Viewpoints for the same Diagram Element
« Reply #14 on: November 02, 2016, 06:05:17 pm »
Do you mean you have two elements, one a BPMN Activity and the other an ArchiMate Business Process, perhaps with the same name? If so, then you don't have the same element, you have TWO, potentially linked, elements.

Then we've all been under a huge misunderstanding from the start.

Assuming that what I said at the start above is true, if not, then there's no point in continuing to discuss.

How do you intend to link the two elements?  Will they have the same or related names?

Paolo

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