Author Topic: Need another business language EA offers, apart from BPMN  (Read 1466 times)

avi10000

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Need another business language EA offers, apart from BPMN
« on: April 21, 2023, 07:51:52 am »
Hi all,

What other business languages does EA offer apart from BPMN, but with similar characteristics to BPMN?

I am having problems with BPMN's visual capabilities. (See Bugs area about centering text.) 

The other business language must not have these problems.

Further requirement, the business language's activity elements must be rectangular with rounded corners.   

(Otherwise I am going back to Visio.)

Desperate... 



Thanks
Avi

Eve

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Re: Need another business language EA offers, apart from BPMN
« Reply #1 on: April 21, 2023, 08:15:14 am »
In the Business Modeling perspective you'll find quite a list, but they are largely complimentary. I would also add ArchiMate..If you're rejecting BPMN because you don't like the resize behavior you will have gaps in what you can effectively express.

Richard Freggi

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Re: Need another business language EA offers, apart from BPMN
« Reply #2 on: April 21, 2023, 12:25:46 pm »
UML is the easiest and most effective business language.




Fight me.

qwerty

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Re: Need another business language EA offers, apart from BPMN
« Reply #3 on: April 21, 2023, 07:48:21 pm »
There's nothing wrong with Visio if you like to draw things. That's a popular way of representing things. (Un)fortunately it's copletely free of any formalism. See if that fits you.

q.

avi10000

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Re: Need another business language EA offers, apart from BPMN
« Reply #4 on: April 21, 2023, 09:45:51 pm »
Hi Richard,

Thanks for the response.

Do you mean to use UML Activity Diagrams?

Indeed I was thinking of that. But I wanted to be "professional" and use a language that is targeted for business processes.

(Btw, I guess that using a different tool for BPMN e.g., Eclipse UML, might not have text problem (but could have different problems.

Btw #2, I will have to use act diag actions rather than activities, because activities do not let you legally connect them with control flows for some reason. And apparently that is the correct practice according to the UML spec.)


Also occurred to me that UML activity diagrams offer the streaming feature, i.e., outputs partial results to share with concurrent activities. This is very useful to me. (BPMN does not offer streaming, AFAIR.)

Now you said it, I think I will take you up on it.

Cheers ! :)

Avi


UML is the easiest and most effective business language.

Geert Bellekens

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Re: Need another business language EA offers, apart from BPMN
« Reply #5 on: April 21, 2023, 10:13:45 pm »
For the record: I think BPMN is one the best MDG available in EA.
It allows me to create nice professional process definitions. I haven't encountered the resizing issue you are talking about and I'm wondering why?

Do you have like really long names for your Activities?

Anyway, it feels like a the resizing issue is a minor cosmetic issue. Deciding to use another language allthogether because of this feels like "throwing away the baby with the bathwater"

On the other hand, if you are trying to model streaming features, and partial results to concurrent activities, you might not be modelling business processes after all but much more technical system processes.
In that case, UML Activity diagrams might be better suited. (and yes, you don't put Activities on an Activity Diagram)

Geert

Richard Freggi

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Re: Need another business language EA offers, apart from BPMN
« Reply #6 on: April 21, 2023, 11:47:28 pm »
Hi Richard,

Thanks for the response.

Do you mean to use UML Activity Diagrams?

Indeed I was thinking of that. But I wanted to be "professional" and use a language that is targeted for business processes.

(Btw, I guess that using a different tool for BPMN e.g., Eclipse UML, might not have text problem (but could have different problems.

Btw #2, I will have to use act diag actions rather than activities, because activities do not let you legally connect them with control flows for some reason. And apparently that is the correct practice according to the UML spec.)


Also occurred to me that UML activity diagrams offer the streaming feature, i.e., outputs partial results to share with concurrent activities. This is very useful to me. (BPMN does not offer streaming, AFAIR.)

Now you said it, I think I will take you up on it.

Cheers ! :)

Avi


UML is the easiest and most effective business language.

For requirement modeling, use case diagrams
For business process modeling, attach any number of sequence diagrams to the use case.  Avoid activity diagrams unless you are describing procedural code (for example a class method at logical / physical level)
For data modeling, use the classes generated by the sequence diagrams to define domain object models and ERDs (database data models) at logical or physical level
For system architecture, use component diagrams.  The residents of the components are classes and database objects from the DOM / ERDs
For system infrastructure, use deployment diagrams whose artifacts are the components of the component diagrams at physical level

You have a full system architecture with traceability from user requirements to deployed systems and back.  You can change anything in any of above steps (requirements, users, classes, components, nodes) and quickly propagate the change to all other levels.

(BPMN and activity diagrams are not object oriented so they don't really fit into the architecture)

It takes experience to get it right but that's why all architects have white hair in their head

Geert Bellekens

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Re: Need another business language EA offers, apart from BPMN
« Reply #7 on: April 22, 2023, 12:19:53 am »
For business process modeling, attach any number of sequence diagrams to the use case.  Avoid activity diagrams unless you are describing procedural code (for example a class method at logical / physical level)

Hi Richard,

You seem to have a rather software centric view on things.

When we model business processes, we often don't even want to consider software, or systems.
A Use Case is a group of functionality that is to be automated (i.e. software), but business processes exist even without automation. (e.g. phone calls, paper documents, et...)

And frankly, if I wanted to validate my business process with the business, they would shoo me out of their office if I came to them with sequence diagrams.
Sequence diagrams are a very technical type of diagram, and are hard to understand by non-technical users.

Flow charts on the other hand is something they know and understand. BPMN looks a lot like flowcharts, so that tends to go a lot better.
Your remark about BPMN and Activity diagrams being not object oriented illustrates my point about the software centric view.

I can understand that your approach works for your environment, but modelling if often done for a much broader scope than just the software or systems.

Geert

qwerty

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Re: Need another business language EA offers, apart from BPMN
« Reply #8 on: April 22, 2023, 01:07:08 am »
I'm with Geert. Though I never user BPMN purely I borrowed a couple of elements to put them in a specific profile. Basically AD's are used to communicate with business people which works well. However, adding a bit of sugar (after talking with some of them) makes things even flow better. The less you use the better.

q.

avi10000

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Re: Need another business language EA offers, apart from BPMN
« Reply #9 on: April 26, 2023, 06:56:17 am »
Hi qyerty,

> The less you use the better.

Do you mean the less different types of elements you use the better?
 

I'm with Geert. Though I never user BPMN purely I borrowed a couple of elements to put them in a specific profile. Basically AD's are used to communicate with business people which works well. However, adding a bit of sugar (after talking with some of them) makes things even flow better. The less you use the better.

q.

qwerty

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Re: Need another business language EA offers, apart from BPMN
« Reply #10 on: April 26, 2023, 07:34:52 am »
Yes. BPMN has an overwhelming set of elements. Using (too) many of them will not light up but confuse the (usually BPMM-unskilled) readers. So KISS is a good principle here (like so often).

q.

ea0522

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Re: Need another business language EA offers, apart from BPMN
« Reply #11 on: April 26, 2023, 03:56:17 pm »
Why not stick to ArchiMate?
For me, the set of Business elements provided is sufficient for the business processes I describe (Process, Event, Junction cover more than 80%).
And it has the benefit of relating business elements to application elements.
In my opinion, each business process step is supported by 0, 1 or more application services which in turn can use other services or interfaces to deliver the required functionality.

avi10000

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Re: Need another business language EA offers, apart from BPMN
« Reply #12 on: April 27, 2023, 12:40:10 am »
Thanks

Yes. BPMN has an overwhelming set of elements. Using (too) many of them will not light up but confuse the (usually BPMM-unskilled) readers. So KISS is a good principle here (like so often).

q.

avi10000

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Re: Need another business language EA offers, apart from BPMN
« Reply #13 on: April 27, 2023, 12:41:30 am »
ArchiMate also offers a business process notation?


Why not stick to ArchiMate?
For me, the set of Business elements provided is sufficient for the business processes I describe (Process, Event, Junction cover more than 80%).
And it has the benefit of relating business elements to application elements.
In my opinion, each business process step is supported by 0, 1 or more application services which in turn can use other services or interfaces to deliver the required functionality.

wivel

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Re: Need another business language EA offers, apart from BPMN
« Reply #14 on: April 27, 2023, 04:30:14 am »
ArchiMate also offers a business process notation?
Only rudimentary compared to BPMN. I always combine ArchiMate with BPMN, i.e use ArchiMate to specify the business processes and then use BPMN to describe it.

Henrik